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	<title>Comments for closetojesus.org</title>
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	<link>http://closetojesus.org/john316</link>
	<description>Writing about God and His son Jesus</description>
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		<title>Comment on A Small Price to Pay by Mike</title>
		<link>http://closetojesus.org/john316/2010/02/a-small-price-to-pay/comment-page-1/#comment-151</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Mar 2012 20:06:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://closetojesus.org/john316/?p=188#comment-151</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;How wonderful to hear!

We recently met someone from a Russian congregation here in Iowa and hope to visit their church one day.

God bless, Mike&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How wonderful to hear!</p>
<p>We recently met someone from a Russian congregation here in Iowa and hope to visit their church one day.</p>
<p>God bless, Mike</p>
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		<title>Comment on A Small Price to Pay by Marina</title>
		<link>http://closetojesus.org/john316/2010/02/a-small-price-to-pay/comment-page-1/#comment-150</link>
		<dc:creator>Marina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Mar 2012 19:18:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://closetojesus.org/john316/?p=188#comment-150</guid>
		<description>I have this book and I know this family very well.  Being around them is a true blessing and encouragement to one&#039;s faith.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have this book and I know this family very well.  Being around them is a true blessing and encouragement to one&#8217;s faith.</p>
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		<title>Comment on King James vs. NIV? &#8211; Precept upon Precept vs. Do and Do by Charles Nicholson</title>
		<link>http://closetojesus.org/john316/2010/02/king-james-vs-niv-precept-upon-precept-vs-do-and-do/comment-page-1/#comment-133</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles Nicholson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Sep 2011 17:09:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://closetojesus.org/john316/?p=196#comment-133</guid>
		<description>Hi Mike,

I believe the message and context of the NIV and KJV passages are consistent: judgement on Ephraim for its indiscretion of hearing and following the ways of God.

Note the themes: 
drunkards/drunkeness (vs. 1,3, 7-8)
mockery/scoffing (14, 22)
contrast of teachings of Ephraim and the ways of God (v. 3 with v. 5; v. 15 with 18)

With these pervasive concepts, I think the passage in 9-13 can be understood correctly as saying essentially this: your drunken priests (who err in their judgements and are not led by God) are trying to teach the people but are ineffective and silly.  These same people, to whom God wanted to provide rest for the weary, did not listen to God --&gt;and because of that the word of the Lord will be ineffective and silly to them and they will stumble and fall.  

The scoffers boast about their covenant with death (v.15), and what is the word of te Lord to them now?  That this covenant with death becomes ineffective, annulled (v. 18).  

To me it seems that the phrase &quot;sav lasav sav lasav, kav lakav kav lakav&quot; (translated as &quot;precept upon precept, line upon line&quot; in KVJ and as &quot;Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule&quot; in NIV)
intends to portray how one teaches small children (note the similarity in sound in the original language, and the idea of &quot;little by little&quot;) -- You could say that the teaching of these priests were uninformed, nonsensical, and useless.  Contrast this with what God teaches (v.23-26) and that God is &quot;wonderful in counsel&quot; (v.29).

The contrasted of images in this passage are very beautiful: between the stumbling, staggering, filthy, drunken priests  and v.16-17 where God says He will set a &quot;precious cornerstone&quot; as a &quot;sure foundation&quot; and how He will make &quot;righteousness the plummet&quot; (KJV)  or (in the NIV &quot;justice the plumb line&quot;) --- what the priests offer is unstable, errored, and insufficient, wherewas what God sets up is always secure, unwavering, stable, and precious. 

I said all of this because I believe it is important to evaluate the entire passage for context and meaning.  It seems to me that KJV and NIV present the same message.  I disagree with you that the NIV presents the word of the Lord as rubbish in this passage.  Note that in the NIV v.16-19 is the what the Lord &quot;says&quot; and His word and is certainly not presented as rubbish, v.23-26 is example of God&#039;s useful and correct instruction, v.27-29 culminate with the conclusion in the NIV that the Lord is wonderful in counsel and magnificent in wisdom&quot; -- just because the KJV says &quot;excellent in doing&quot; does NOT imply that here the KJV is trying to deny the wisdom of God!  

In conclusion, simply because one difficult phrase in the middle of the passage is translated differently by different biblical translators is not itself problematic (anyone who speaks multiple languages knows that some phrases have many different and valid translations) -- the meaning of the entire message of Isaiah 28 seems to be intact and consistent between NIV and KJV. 

God bless,
Charles

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Mike,</p>
<p>I believe the message and context of the NIV and KJV passages are consistent: judgement on Ephraim for its indiscretion of hearing and following the ways of God.</p>
<p>Note the themes:<br />
drunkards/drunkeness (vs. 1,3, 7-8)<br />
mockery/scoffing (14, 22)<br />
contrast of teachings of Ephraim and the ways of God (v. 3 with v. 5; v. 15 with 18)</p>
<p>With these pervasive concepts, I think the passage in 9-13 can be understood correctly as saying essentially this: your drunken priests (who err in their judgements and are not led by God) are trying to teach the people but are ineffective and silly.  These same people, to whom God wanted to provide rest for the weary, did not listen to God &#8211;&gt;and because of that the word of the Lord will be ineffective and silly to them and they will stumble and fall.  </p>
<p>The scoffers boast about their covenant with death (v.15), and what is the word of te Lord to them now?  That this covenant with death becomes ineffective, annulled (v. 18).  </p>
<p>To me it seems that the phrase &#8220;sav lasav sav lasav, kav lakav kav lakav&#8221; (translated as &#8220;precept upon precept, line upon line&#8221; in KVJ and as &#8220;Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule&#8221; in NIV)<br />
intends to portray how one teaches small children (note the similarity in sound in the original language, and the idea of &#8220;little by little&#8221;) &#8212; You could say that the teaching of these priests were uninformed, nonsensical, and useless.  Contrast this with what God teaches (v.23-26) and that God is &#8220;wonderful in counsel&#8221; (v.29).</p>
<p>The contrasted of images in this passage are very beautiful: between the stumbling, staggering, filthy, drunken priests  and v.16-17 where God says He will set a &#8220;precious cornerstone&#8221; as a &#8220;sure foundation&#8221; and how He will make &#8220;righteousness the plummet&#8221; (KJV)  or (in the NIV &#8220;justice the plumb line&#8221;) &#8212; what the priests offer is unstable, errored, and insufficient, wherewas what God sets up is always secure, unwavering, stable, and precious. </p>
<p>I said all of this because I believe it is important to evaluate the entire passage for context and meaning.  It seems to me that KJV and NIV present the same message.  I disagree with you that the NIV presents the word of the Lord as rubbish in this passage.  Note that in the NIV v.16-19 is the what the Lord &#8220;says&#8221; and His word and is certainly not presented as rubbish, v.23-26 is example of God&#8217;s useful and correct instruction, v.27-29 culminate with the conclusion in the NIV that the Lord is wonderful in counsel and magnificent in wisdom&#8221; &#8212; just because the KJV says &#8220;excellent in doing&#8221; does NOT imply that here the KJV is trying to deny the wisdom of God!  </p>
<p>In conclusion, simply because one difficult phrase in the middle of the passage is translated differently by different biblical translators is not itself problematic (anyone who speaks multiple languages knows that some phrases have many different and valid translations) &#8212; the meaning of the entire message of Isaiah 28 seems to be intact and consistent between NIV and KJV. </p>
<p>God bless,<br />
Charles</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Return of Close to Jesus by Domain Recovered! &#124; closetojesus.org</title>
		<link>http://closetojesus.org/john316/2005/02/the-return-of-close-to-jesus/comment-page-1/#comment-69</link>
		<dc:creator>Domain Recovered! &#124; closetojesus.org</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Sep 2010 11:53:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://closetojesus.org/john316/?p=142#comment-69</guid>
		<description>[...] Viewed Welcome to closetojesus.org! - 1,736 viewsThe Return of Close to Jesus - 979 viewsClosetoJesus.org is back! - 729 viewsClose to Jesus Hits 100! - 689 viewsTime for [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Viewed Welcome to closetojesus.org! &#8211; 1,736 viewsThe Return of Close to Jesus &#8211; 979 viewsClosetoJesus.org is back! &#8211; 729 viewsClose to Jesus Hits 100! &#8211; 689 viewsTime for [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Filthy Rags by Jason</title>
		<link>http://closetojesus.org/john316/2010/02/filthy-rags/comment-page-1/#comment-67</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Apr 2010 19:54:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://closetojesus.org/john316/?p=180#comment-67</guid>
		<description>Check this out.  Found this link that compares King James version to other versions.
http://closetojesus.org/john316/2010/02/king-james-vs-niv-precept-upon-precept-vs-do-and-do/#comment-66</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Check this out.  Found this link that compares King James version to other versions.<br />
<a href="http://closetojesus.org/john316/2010/02/king-james-vs-niv-precept-upon-precept-vs-do-and-do/#comment-66" rel="nofollow">http://closetojesus.org/john316/2010/02/king-james-vs-niv-precept-upon-precept-vs-do-and-do/#comment-66</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on King James vs. NIV? &#8211; Precept upon Precept vs. Do and Do by Jason</title>
		<link>http://closetojesus.org/john316/2010/02/king-james-vs-niv-precept-upon-precept-vs-do-and-do/comment-page-1/#comment-66</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Apr 2010 19:21:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://closetojesus.org/john316/?p=196#comment-66</guid>
		<description>Hi, came across this link which has a book that is written on different bible translations and great doctrines are lost in those translations
 
http://kjv.benabraham.com/html/our_authorized_bible_vindicate.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, came across this link which has a book that is written on different bible translations and great doctrines are lost in those translations<br />
 <br />
<a href="http://kjv.benabraham.com/html/our_authorized_bible_vindicate.html" rel="nofollow">http://kjv.benabraham.com/html/our_authorized_bible_vindicate.html</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on King James vs. NIV? &#8211; Precept upon Precept vs. Do and Do by Mike</title>
		<link>http://closetojesus.org/john316/2010/02/king-james-vs-niv-precept-upon-precept-vs-do-and-do/comment-page-1/#comment-60</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 12:33:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://closetojesus.org/john316/?p=196#comment-60</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The most important issue of all Bible versions is the underlying texts used in translation. The pure and preserved texts are known as the Greek Textus Receptus and the Hebrew Masoretic text. It is also important to consider the lexicons that were used in modern translation work. All the modern lexicons and Bible dictionaries are corrupted by word definitions rooted in the Greek classics, not the definition given in the context of the Bible. The men who wrote these lexicons were Bible critics!&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;These are issues that every Christian must examine!&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;When I go into a Christian bookstore and look for a Bible, I am confronted with a literal &quot;Bible babble&quot; of versions.   One local bookstore even has a Bible consultant to help you choose which Bible is right for you.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I recommend that you get a King James Bible without notes or study helps. Read the Bible daily.  When you don&#039;t understand a word, look in the verse or verses around it for a definition.  The King James Bible contains definitions for the words in it. Pray for the Holy Spirit to teach you.  Find a good concordance and use it to locate related passages through word studies.  Do not use the Greek references in the back of the concordance, for these are corrupt too.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;God gave an English Bible for English speaking people. We don&#039;t need to learn Greek or Hebrew to understand the Bible.  Please investigate the line of translations that came after the King James Bible, starting with the Revised Version of Wescott and Hort. Look into the character and motives of these men.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;God will not leave us without his word. He provided it in the King James Bible. Satan wants to destroy your faith by changing the word of God.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The most important issue of all Bible versions is the underlying texts used in translation. The pure and preserved texts are known as the Greek Textus Receptus and the Hebrew Masoretic text. It is also important to consider the lexicons that were used in modern translation work. All the modern lexicons and Bible dictionaries are corrupted by word definitions rooted in the Greek classics, not the definition given in the context of the Bible. The men who wrote these lexicons were Bible critics!</p>
<p>These are issues that every Christian must examine!</p>
<p>When I go into a Christian bookstore and look for a Bible, I am confronted with a literal &#8220;Bible babble&#8221; of versions.   One local bookstore even has a Bible consultant to help you choose which Bible is right for you.</p>
<p>I recommend that you get a King James Bible without notes or study helps. Read the Bible daily.  When you don&#8217;t understand a word, look in the verse or verses around it for a definition.  The King James Bible contains definitions for the words in it. Pray for the Holy Spirit to teach you.  Find a good concordance and use it to locate related passages through word studies.  Do not use the Greek references in the back of the concordance, for these are corrupt too.</p>
<p>God gave an English Bible for English speaking people. We don&#8217;t need to learn Greek or Hebrew to understand the Bible.  Please investigate the line of translations that came after the King James Bible, starting with the Revised Version of Wescott and Hort. Look into the character and motives of these men.</p>
<p>God will not leave us without his word. He provided it in the King James Bible. Satan wants to destroy your faith by changing the word of God.</p>
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		<title>Comment on King James vs. NIV? &#8211; Precept upon Precept vs. Do and Do by Paul Hubert</title>
		<link>http://closetojesus.org/john316/2010/02/king-james-vs-niv-precept-upon-precept-vs-do-and-do/comment-page-1/#comment-58</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Hubert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 06:37:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://closetojesus.org/john316/?p=196#comment-58</guid>
		<description>The rendering in the ESV is very close to the KJV... and the commentary is nothing like that in the NIV... I&#039;ve never been fond of the NIV, though Linda and I read THROUGH it once.
My &#039;old reliable&#039;  had been the NAS for many years, but I&#039;ve used many versions, including TEV, Jerusalem, New English, New King James and now ESV. The latter especially for its extensive references.
When you say &#039;modern&#039; do you mean a departure from word for word translation?
I would say, stick to central themes, read prayerfully, keep the ENTIRE context in mind, particularly when it comes to the NATURE and CHARACTER of God.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The rendering in the ESV is very close to the KJV&#8230; and the commentary is nothing like that in the NIV&#8230; I&#8217;ve never been fond of the NIV, though Linda and I read THROUGH it once.<br />
My &#8216;old reliable&#8217;  had been the NAS for many years, but I&#8217;ve used many versions, including TEV, Jerusalem, New English, New King James and now ESV. The latter especially for its extensive references.<br />
When you say &#8216;modern&#8217; do you mean a departure from word for word translation?<br />
I would say, stick to central themes, read prayerfully, keep the ENTIRE context in mind, particularly when it comes to the NATURE and CHARACTER of God.</p>
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		<title>Comment on A Small Price to Pay by Mike</title>
		<link>http://closetojesus.org/john316/2010/02/a-small-price-to-pay/comment-page-1/#comment-55</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Feb 2010 18:59:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://closetojesus.org/john316/?p=188#comment-55</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;As Paul has asked, here is the answer!&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;I breathed deeply. &quot;I . . .&quot;  I hesitated. &quot;I really don&#039;t think I have an answer for you right now.&quot; I hoped this would not offend him.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;&quot;Humph!&quot; His voice had quieted down.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;&quot;But I will pray about it and ask God for wisdom and understanding.:&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;&quot;You will? Then pray out loud so I can hear you!&quot;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;I closed my eyes. &quot;Lord, I bring this question to you. I do not know the answer to Nicolai&#039;s question. I do not know why some people are more blessed than others. I do not know why Nicolai was born into his situation. When I think of my own parents, I do thank you for them. I thank you for the years you allowed Papa to be at home and teach us about you and to pray to you. I thank you for a godly mother who taught us so much about your love. I thank you that she taught us to pray and ask for whatever we needed or did not understand.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;&quot;I am sorry I did not appreciate my mother more when I was young. Tonight, I think of my own children, kneeling and praying for their father here in prison. I know they are praying for my safety and release. Please, Lord, tell them that I can&#039;t come home right now, for there are too many people here in prison who need to hear about Jesus.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;&quot;So, Lord, here we are, asking you questions and knowing you hear us. Bless our little discussion tonight. Give me an answer of wisdom for Nicolai. In the name of your Son, Jesus, I pray. Amen.&quot;&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I&#039;ll skip some of the story and pick up again with Nicolai.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;After a bland breakfast, we were escorted back to the bunk room. The men were waiting for this time.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;&quot;Here, holy man, sit here. Tell us more about yourself.&quot; The prisoner gave me a spot on one of the lower bunks.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;&quot;Tell us more about your God,&quot; another man chimed in.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;Nicolai was there too. &quot;I still think having parents is the most important thing in life,&quot; he began.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;A chorus of rebuttals met this statement. &quot;I had parents, and they did no good for me!&quot; shouted one man.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;&quot;Then why is Sasha in prison?&quot; called another, gesturing toward a silent prisoner. &quot;He had parents, but he killed them when they were both drunk!&quot; More protests and arguments echoed around the cell before they looked expectantly at me.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;&quot;What do you say, holy man?&quot; They all grew quiet, waiting for an answer.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;I took a deep breath, praying for wisdom. &quot;I think,&quot; I began, &quot;the most important thing in life is to know God through Jesus Christ.&quot; I did not know if they were ready to hear this or not, but I decided to speak boldly. &quot;I thank God for my mother, but I know she cannot be with me all the time. Only Jesus can do that.&quot; They listened respectfully, then changed the subject.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As Paul has asked, here is the answer!</p>
<p><em>I breathed deeply. &#8220;I . . .&#8221;  I hesitated. &#8220;I really don&#8217;t think I have an answer for you right now.&#8221; I hoped this would not offend him.</em></p>
<p><em>&#8220;Humph!&#8221; His voice had quieted down.</em></p>
<p><em>&#8220;But I will pray about it and ask God for wisdom and understanding.:</em></p>
<p><em>&#8220;You will? Then pray out loud so I can hear you!&#8221;</em></p>
<p><em>I closed my eyes. &#8220;Lord, I bring this question to you. I do not know the answer to Nicolai&#8217;s question. I do not know why some people are more blessed than others. I do not know why Nicolai was born into his situation. When I think of my own parents, I do thank you for them. I thank you for the years you allowed Papa to be at home and teach us about you and to pray to you. I thank you for a godly mother who taught us so much about your love. I thank you that she taught us to pray and ask for whatever we needed or did not understand.</em></p>
<p><em>&#8220;I am sorry I did not appreciate my mother more when I was young. Tonight, I think of my own children, kneeling and praying for their father here in prison. I know they are praying for my safety and release. Please, Lord, tell them that I can&#8217;t come home right now, for there are too many people here in prison who need to hear about Jesus.</em></p>
<p><em>&#8220;So, Lord, here we are, asking you questions and knowing you hear us. Bless our little discussion tonight. Give me an answer of wisdom for Nicolai. In the name of your Son, Jesus, I pray. Amen.&#8221;</em></p>
<p>I&#8217;ll skip some of the story and pick up again with Nicolai.</p>
<p><em>After a bland breakfast, we were escorted back to the bunk room. The men were waiting for this time.</em></p>
<p><em>&#8220;Here, holy man, sit here. Tell us more about yourself.&#8221; The prisoner gave me a spot on one of the lower bunks.</em></p>
<p><em>&#8220;Tell us more about your God,&#8221; another man chimed in.</em></p>
<p><em>Nicolai was there too. &#8220;I still think having parents is the most important thing in life,&#8221; he began.</em></p>
<p><em>A chorus of rebuttals met this statement. &#8220;I had parents, and they did no good for me!&#8221; shouted one man.</em></p>
<p><em>&#8220;Then why is Sasha in prison?&#8221; called another, gesturing toward a silent prisoner. &#8220;He had parents, but he killed them when they were both drunk!&#8221; More protests and arguments echoed around the cell before they looked expectantly at me.</em></p>
<p><em>&#8220;What do you say, holy man?&#8221; They all grew quiet, waiting for an answer.</em></p>
<p><em>I took a deep breath, praying for wisdom. &#8220;I think,&#8221; I began, &#8220;the most important thing in life is to know God through Jesus Christ.&#8221; I did not know if they were ready to hear this or not, but I decided to speak boldly. &#8220;I thank God for my mother, but I know she cannot be with me all the time. Only Jesus can do that.&#8221; They listened respectfully, then changed the subject.</em></p>
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		<title>Comment on A Small Price to Pay by Paul Hubert</title>
		<link>http://closetojesus.org/john316/2010/02/a-small-price-to-pay/comment-page-1/#comment-54</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Hubert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:35:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://closetojesus.org/john316/?p=188#comment-54</guid>
		<description>This would be a good post in varlinux under the article on &quot;Fairness&quot; ... though it would probably help if followed by an ANSWER.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This would be a good post in varlinux under the article on &#8220;Fairness&#8221; &#8230; though it would probably help if followed by an ANSWER.</p>
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